Are you ready to stop playing small? In today’s episode, I’m continuing my mindset series and introducing you to best-selling author Mary Marantz. Mary shares some of the truths revealed in her upcoming book Underestimated, like the root causes of self-sabotage and how to finally stop underestimating yourself. 

On Quianna Marie Weekly, we’re chatting about business growing pains, finding genuine connections, and celebrating wins of all sizes through the lens of a photographer at heart. Sprinkled throughout stories and interviews with past clients, photographers and other business owners this podcast is designed to help you step into your purpose and to truly create a life you’re proud of, a life worth photographing and sharing.

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Today’s episode is brought to you by The Green House, my resource garden for photographers! Let me help you AMPLIFY your heart online and in real life to turn bridesmaids into future brides through templates, workshops, and freebies!

Review The Show Notes: 

What It Means To Be Playing Small (3:32)

Positioning Yourself Through Your Strengths (8:45)

Expressing All Parts Of Yourself (14:15)

Being Underestimated And Underestimating Yourself (21:57)

Breaking Through And Overcoming Self-Sabatoge (26:16)

What We Get By Procrastinating (32:42)

Creating Healthy Spaces For Big Breakthroughs (39:46)

How Mary Selected Her Book Cover (44:07)

Key Tip From Mary (48:40)

Mentioned in this Episode:

Episode 111: Slow Growth with Mary Marantz

Connect With Mary:

Underestimated Book Preorder: marymarantz.com/underestimated

Achiever Quiz: marymarantz.com/quiz

Podcast: marymarantz.com/themarymarantzshow

Instagram: instagram.com/marymarantz

Review the Transcript:

Quianna: You know that feeling when you hear someone speak and you can hear the words coming out of their lips, but you can’t help but feel like you’re watching a movie or looking at a watercolor painting with exquisite detail. It’s like the way they talk transforms you, not just physically into different dimensions, but transforms the way you think.

For this mindset series, I am honored to include one of my longtime wedding photography mentors that has continued to inspire me daily as she becomes a bestselling author, coach, and industry leader across the board into all different kinds of industries. To know Mary is to love her, to feel seen and accepted unconditionally, while also challenging you to unravel the layers that are keeping you stuck and celebrating the blank pages of your next adventure.

Guiding and leading you to become the best version of yourself. That has been you all along, by the way. Oh my goodness. I’m so excited. Mary Marantz is a bestselling author of Dirt and Underestimated, as well as the host of the popular podcast, the Mary Marantz Show. She grew up in a trailer down a dirt road in West Virginia and was the first in her family to go to college before going on to Yale for law school.

Her work has been featured on CNN, MSNN, business Insider Bustle, thrive Global Southern Living, hallmark, home and family, and more just to name a few. She and her husband Justin live in an 1880s, fixed or upper by the sea. And when she says fixed or upper, don’t let her fool you. Her home is literally perfect.

It’s so gorgeous, and they reside in New Haven, Connecticut. They always go full. Send on the best Halloween costumes and are the most gracious hosts. Today we’ll be chatting all about the root cause of staying small, understanding self-sabotage and procrastination, and how we can reach our next breakthrough.

This conversation will dive deep quickly, so I hope you’re ready for some mic drop moments, mindset shifts, and hopefully the clarity you’ve been looking for. To feel the fear and do it anyway. Ooh, let’s get this party started with a warm welcome. Please welcome Mary Marantz to the show.

Welcome to Quianna Marie Weekly, a podcast for creatives who love to celebrate wins big or small by dancing in the kitchen photographers who are excited to serve their clients.

And friends who are ready to chase really, really big dreams. You can find all of the resources mentioned in this episode@kianamarie.com slash podcast. Join me as I share weekly motivation, chat about growing pains, finding genuine connections, and celebrating your wins. Through the lens of a photographer at heart, come join me for a dance party.

Ready? Let’s go.

Hey, hey, hey. Welcome to the party. Mary, it is such an honor to have you back on the show. How are

Mary: you? Oh my gosh, Kiana, I love you with my whole heart, my whole big puffy heart. Thank you so, so much for having me back. As a podcaster myself, I know how much work goes into all of these episodes. Prepping for them, recording them, you know, pushing ’em out afterwards.

And so this is like sacred space for you and for, for me and, and for your listeners, right? Like, it’s such a fun place to be in somebody’s earbuds and to be invited in like that and for you to just be willing to share your people with me is a gift. And you are a gift. I was thinking about this all day.

Like I’m just so thankful. Like to come on somebody’s show, once is one thing, but to be back, invited back is just. A whole other level. And that’s just you. You’re a whole other level,

Quianna: my friend. Oh my gosh, it’s such an honor. Well, I wanna get into these juicy questions. I wanna know, Mary, what does playing small really mean to you?

Mary: Yeah, you know what’s so interesting is that we actually had a lot of conversations about that when we were, you know, you have like their entire teams involved with titling and subtitling and designing a cover for a book. I chose the, the playing small. Just to catch everybody up who’s listening, the book is called Underestimated, Surprisingly Simple Shift to Quit Playing Small. Name The Fear and Move Forward Anyway, and the original subtitle, I mean, there were many iterations, but the original version that was like when we got pretty close to hammering it, you know, nailing it in, hammering and nailing it.

Apparently it was gonna be a surprisingly simple shift to. I had suggested quit playing small Feel the Fear, which is what I say on my podcast and move forward anyway. And the publisher came back and they had two requests. One was to change feel, to name, because it felt like it gave readers more agency, which I actually really agree with.

Um, that there’s something powerful about naming something, no understanding what it is and being able to move on from it. And then the other thing that they, they suggested that I then like, kind of, you know, resisted or pushed back a little bit was they had suggested to stop second guessing yourself. I.

Name the fear and move forward anyway. And there’s nothing wrong with that phrase in particular, but there’s a ch whole chapter in the book, chapter four, second Guessing is a Missing Handbook. And so I said, listen, that’s actually just one of like 14 ways we’re gonna talk about how we play small. That’s one of them, you know, it’s like Michael Scott with his naming his paper companies.

That’s one of ’em. And so for me, playing small is anything we do to hide in plain sights, to not be willing to, you know, raise our hands and say, oh, I, I could do that. I, I have an idea for that. It’s anything that we do to kinda shrink ourselves up a little smaller, try to take up even one inch less of space in this world because to contort is easier than to be criticized.

And it’s anything we do where we do all the busy work over here that feels like little dopamine hits, that feels like we’re being really productive and busy. But we know that we have not made any real meaningful progress on that thing. We can’t go a day without thinking about, you know, I knew I wanted to write a book since I was five.

I wrote dirt when I was 40, so I know a little something about filling the years with busy work. That’s good work. It’s productive work, but it is not the truly best work we’re being called up to do. And so, like I say in the book, if we are not careful. Another year goes by, the clock goes on ticking and the world is worse for our absence.

So I would say in short, playing small is anything we do where the world ends up being worse for our absence.

Quianna: Wow. Oh my gosh. Well here we go. Kicking off the conversation with the mic drop moments. And I love that. I think that’s so beautiful that we are naming that piece of us that is being, that is plain small.

And I love that you mentioned too about. Almost like disappearing in plain sight, right? Where we sometimes have really good opinions and really good lessons to share and experiences to share, or even just new offers. Like you talked about bringing a book to life. It took you right, 35 years, 40 years, really, you know, to make it happen after you thought about it.

And I love that. I love the idea of naming it so we can actually push through that fear.

Mary: You know what I really liked there is you picked up on something that I don’t know if anybody else has really even like. Paused for, and that’s that idea of hiding in plain sight, right? Because what came up for me when you revisited that just then disappearing in plain sight is just how tricky we are at it.

Because we know how to show up just enough. We know how to look just busy enough. We know how to check just enough boxes that no one would ever guess that we’re actually plain and small, that we’re actually hiding in plain sight. And so it kinda reminds me in chapter three, that self-sabotage is a shot glass.

Which I always like to, you know, give the disclaimer. It has, it has nothing to do with drinking alcohol. Uh, there’s a part, the end, the last section in that chapter, I say we like to sip our self-sabotage. The truth is we prefer it in little doses. We think we can keep it under control that way, just enough, you know, to take the edge off.

But never so much that other people start to take notice. We’re social saboteurs, self-deprecation among friends. A little self-deprecation among friends, never hurt anybody. And that’s kind of. What we’re talking about there. It’s like we find these ways to, you know, it’s the tricky sleigh of hand, the old razzle dazzle.

Like, look over here and you won’t notice that I’m not actually doing anything about that thing that I say. I can’t go a day without thinking about that thing I say I wanna do.

Quianna: Oh my gosh, I love this. Well, and it even brings back kind of a, sort of like a full circle moment to our previous conversation where we were talking about playing small and just like, I don’t know, just kind of not being aware of our greatness.

Like accepting the invitation, showing up, and yeah, I mean, this is just. This is so powerful, and I feel like we can take this in seven different directions. Yeah, let’s do it. Yeah. Well, I, I would love to kind of like circle back to this whole like plain, small like concept, right? And in your book, underestimated, you write about simple shifts to stop playing small and to move forward.

So I feel like I love a good journey and I love a good story. So like, let’s take our listeners. Our friends, I feel like we’re just like going on a walk together or chatting, but yeah, like let’s take each other on this journey where like, okay, cool. Like I’m aware, I’m aware that I am showing up to networking events.

I’m aware that I am even showing up on my own client calls or in my own business and in my own life, and I. I’m just not quite really embracing my greatness. Right? So like what are some shifts or what are some strategies that actually get us to move that needle and to say like almost, I feel like kind of like Clark Kent, where we’re like kind of like unbuttoning, like our little superhero.

Like we’re kind of like exposing

Mary: that amazing. I love this. Okay, so this has taken the conversation in a direction I have not talked about on any of the podcast interviews that I’ve done yet. So love that journey for us as we hike up the mountain in Arizona. I. Yeah, so I, I mean, I just, I love that idea, right, of like, showing up in the fullness of ourselves, feeling like we, like, ironically, I love the Superman example because it’s like Superman who had all of these like superhero powers, all of this like really remarkable attributes to himself, feels like he has to put on the boring, uh, you know, black suit and tie and, and the glasses and like cover up, uh, what makes him different in order to blend in, in order to fit in, in order to go undetected.

And there’s a part in the book where I talk about all of our entrepreneurs listening are gonna super love this. So this is something we used to teach to creative entrepreneurs in our, one of our marketing courses and marketing workshops is this idea of positioning. And so positioning is, I am blank because I am not blank.

Where the trick is both blanks have to be arguably good things. So it’s not enough to just go, I am good because I’m not bad, or I’m good because I’m not evil. Or I am talented because I’m not a hack, because it’s not gonna create any kind of visceral reaction or disagreement among potential clients.

They both have to be arguably good things because it’s going to tell your potential clients, your potential audience, the potential people in the world you would come in contact with and serve. Whether you are their people or not. And so when we, Justin and I, were full-time wedding photographers, ours would have been, we believe classic never goes out of style or we are people who believe.

Classic never goes out of style because we are not trendy. Where there are people who are super trendy and that’s actually a very important part of that. Like every fashion trend that comes out, they keep up with. Meanwhile, I’m like a, you know, button down in a trench coat or whatever, you know, your grandma’s pearls and a, and a classic trench coat, whatever.

And so now we have something we can disagree about. You know, reasonable people can disagree, and what it does is it helps your people to feel like, okay, I have found my person, and you, you don’t have to keep it to just one thing, right? It can be a series of statements like that or a series of we believe statements.

I say the trick is like the, the, the hard part is what we don’t wanna do is carve off all of the edges of us that made us interesting in the first place. Carve off all the edges of our work that made it interesting in the pla in the first place. Carry our own buckets as we run and race to the middle to water ourselves down to be appetizing and palatable to the largest number of people possible because we fail at this assignment when we.

Fall into what I call the lukewarm litmus test. If somebody can take a look at you and what you stand for, take a look at your work and what you stand for and go, meh. Maybe you know MEH, meh, meh. Maybe if they can just only have this kind of lukewarm response to you, then we failed because with positioning, the truth is people, some people will love what you do, and some people will hate what you do.

And the trick is both are a win. As long as we can sort people into one of those two categories, then what it means is that the people who love you will love you without fail. When you are showing up unapologetically as yourself, taking off that jagged and showing the Superman underneath the s, underneath the people who don’t, we’re never gonna get it in the first place.

So that’s also a win. And so the more that we can do that, the more that we can show up and not try to like shrink ourselves, like we talked about earlier, this contortionist contorting, because it’s easier than to be criticized, people pleasing our way, waiting on for a permission that never comes to be acceptable to the masses, to fit in with the masses, to be popular with the masses.

Like the poet laureate laureates, Niles Crane from Frazier said the hallmark of popularity is mediocrity and the only way we’re gonna have that many people love us. As if we are making ourselves bland enough for that many people to love us. So anyway, all of that to say it is one thing to know who you are.

It is another thing to own who you are. And it is a third and final extra level of difficulty thing to know who you are, own who you are, and believe that the world needs more of it. And to put that out unapologetically. And I gotta tell you, that was a really long answer, but I have watched you do that Kiana, over the last few years, and it has been breathtaking to witness.

I’ve watched you do that. I see that in you. I call that out in you and it’s absolutely breathtaking to witness.

Quianna: Oh my gosh. Thank you. That was so beautiful. And you know, I pick up all these little things, right? I pick up these nuggets, right. I’m like, hold on, I need to take notes. No, but literally like, I feel like the thread line in this conversation between playing safe and like revealing your true colors and review, like revealing your amazingness.

Is the ability to feel safe, like to actually feel safe to speak your truth. And I love that because that’s what I picked up when you were putting down, right? Like you, you speak so eloquently and you have all these big words. I love talking to you, but like the picture you’re painting for me, honestly, is that when we can position ourself, when we can truly live authentically as who we are meant to be and who we, and embracing who we’re becoming, right.

And when that happens, like it feels like just going 85 miles down the freeway, right? Like it just feels like limitless options because you feel safe to speak your truth. And I love a good story because honestly, ’cause I’m a, I’m all about my family. My family is the most important thing to me. And it’s so funny because I’m actually picking up what you’re putting down here where, let’s say for example, I go to a live podcasting event or I attend a conference, right?

And I feel like that’s Kiana Marie, right? Like here I am, like I’m. Always so grateful to be there. I, the energy is high and then I come home and I feel like, oh, that’s the real Kiana, because I like, literally my voice changes. Like, I literally like, right, like the voice changes. The way I speak to my family, I feel so vulnerable to be like just tr like truth day comes out and, and it makes me wonder how we can blend those two, like how we can embody both of those, like who you are online, who you are in person, who you are with your family, like all these different personalities to stop playing small because when you can feel safe in your environment, whether that is.

On any stage you’re on, whether it’s posting a post to Instagram, whether it’s, you know, publishing a blog, writing a book. Oh my gosh. Right. When you develop a safe space within your own body, within your own community, within your own audience, oh my gosh. Like the world is yours.

Mary: Yeah. The first thing I would say to that is that you are allowed.

To have levels to you, you are allowed to have more and more inner circles that fewer and fewer people get access to. And it doesn’t mean that any of those layers are inauthentic or by necessity, have to be inauthentic. Some people do show up, you know, at a conference, very, very different than how they are behind closed doors.

Like, like in a putting on a performance sort of way. But that, that’s a very different thing than like, oh, I’m just gonna turn the volume up, or the, you know, photographers listening the saturation up, um, on who I already am at different degrees depending on who I’m with. So that’s the first thing I would say is you’re allowed to have your truest inner circle.

That is the safest place where not an ounce of like being on or even having to think about filtering what you’re saying is there. That’s allowed. The second thing is, you know, we talk a lot about this idea of like, we contain multitudes. I actually had Britt Frank, who is an incredible author and an incredible therapist.

She specializes in internal family systems, which is like this idea that inside each of us, we have all of these different parts. We have protective parts, we have reactive parts, we have the parts of us that are, you know, we’ve called exiles that we thought we had to banish, that we weren’t allowed to be those parts.

And, um, one of the things we, I was talking about her with was the inner critic is classically identified as one of the protective parts that it was born to keep us safe. Even if it’s super, it sounds super mean to us and feels like a bully in our own heads. What it’s really trying to do is it’s like, better me to criticize you than the world.

You know, like that kind of idea. And so one of the things she was talking about is like, you there, first of all, there are no bad parts. They just have different motivations and they’re doing different things in their own sort of like. Messed up way to, to keep you safe or, or keep you comfortable, like your brain does not try to thrive.

It tries to survive. And that we get to be kind of the CEO, you know, she kind of referenced like inside out to kinda give you like a picture of like picture all these different parts we get to as the true self kind of be the CEO of the boardroom, be the one leading the meeting, taking everybody’s opinion into consideration, but not being beholden to any one of them.

And so I can go into a conference and I can go, okay, what makes me feel like I can show up as my best self is when I give myself extra time to get a little more put together. When I maybe have a new outfit, although let’s not make that like a crutch that I have to have every single time. You know, when I am carving out, time to go introvert, crash hard in my hotel room every so often, whatever, and they’re, they’re not going to get the full picture of Mary, but they’re going, they’re, the parts they’re gonna get are still actual real, authentic parts of Mary.

And so that’s kind of like a fascinating side conversation, but truly like we could spend a whole week just talking about internal family systems, you know, how to start to have conversations with them. Like for example, um, with the inner critic, Dr. Martha Sweezy says you should enter into like a dialogue with your inner critic, where you ask it, Hey, like, how old do you think I am right now?

And you may be surprised to find out it thinks you’re like that 5-year-old or that 10-year-old that it was born to protect. And then I was telling Britta about that, about that, and she goes. And then let’s ask our inner critic how old it is, because there’s a good chance it’s this like two or 3-year-old toddler version of us that’s just having a meltdown and it just needs a cookie and a hug, you know?

I, I think, like I would just say to somebody who feels that way that you’re not being inauthentic. You are guarding your heart, you’re setting up good boundaries, and you’re being, you’re showing a lot of discernment with who gets the fullest picture of you and all of those. I co-sign.

Quianna: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you for like wrapping that with a bow because I think that’s exactly what I was trying to express, right, is that there are different parts of us.

And you know, I do feel like we feel most confident when we feel safe. When we feel safe to speak without judgment, when we feel safe to speak. And especially right now with this is just such a huge cancel culture, it can be scared, scary to say something and think, oh, can I retract that? And with the internet you can’t, right?

So being your in auth, like being your authentic self means everything. And so I would love to kind of steer the conversation back to your title Underestimated. And, you know, I, I wanna open this conversation with you, Mary, because I feel like there’s two parts in my head about being underestimated, and I feel like that comes from like an external validation versus like internal.

So, so for example, this will be a quick little story and then we can kind of unpack this back in my days as a wedding photographer. I remember if I got a referral from my friend or even my brother, my brother was the best hype man, right? Like he would, he would always hype me up and like, I swear I’ve probably done over a dozen of his buddies’ weddings, right?

Like, it’s insane. And I remember when we were at the races, we were at a barbecue where we were at a little kid’s birthday party and they would say, oh yeah, Kiana, you have to have her shoot your wedding. And I remember that like, like just a little bit of that kind of. Like uncertainty about it where people would say like, oh, we’re okay.

Yeah, I’m sure she’s just starting out. And then there was a piece of me that was like, do not underestimate me because I’m going to blow you away with not just my photos, but my experience, my knowledge. Like I got you covered. Like, don’t even worry. So I feel like that’s like a piece of like underestimated feelings that, you know, I feel like all of us can experience sometimes when outside validators like, don’t meet those expectations.

And then I also feel like on the flip of the coin, how often we are underestimating ourselves. Oh, we are literally like, kind of like a piggyback to our plain small conversation, but just feeling underestimated and being like, wait a second, no. Like I am capable of this. And I think we, I don’t think we said these exact words earlier, but.

It was a, a kind of a notion that my, like 45% is like literally somebody else’s, like five years worth of work in a day, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like, so just kind of like putting that into perspective. So I guess my question is, as I’ve kind of like set the stage for all of this underestimated talk.

What is the root of underestimating ourselves and how can we redefine our self-worth with that?

Mary: Mm-hmm. Yeah, just wanna like a hundred percent, like, first of all, like co like co-sign validate, like everything you just said in terms of I know that feeling so well and, and actually a really interesting thing we would always teach in those marketing classes I was talking about is that the way peop your, the way your clients or the way people find you, trains them on how to think about you.

And that’s just a human thing. That’s a human thing across the board. You know, if somebody finds me because I’m speaking on a stage they’ve never heard of me before, but then I get up on stage and I just like, knock it out of the water, you know, knock it outta the park, whatever, and blow it outta the water.

Knock it outta the park. There we go. And they, they’re literally like looking up to me, you know, ’cause they’re in the chairs and they’re looking up and I’m, you know, got a spotlight on me and giant slides behind me. Or maybe like giant video screens. That’s a very different introduction than if I come over in a really kind of humble, gentle way and say, oh, can I join you for lunch at this conference?

I, you know, I wouldn’t be saying this part, but I at that point, have not spoken yet at this conference, and you have no idea who I am. I’m gonna get treated very differently based on how those people have found me. So I have experienced so many times in my life. When, you know, Justin’s dad would say, oh, you need to hire my son and daughter-in-law for your event.

And people would be like, oh, okay. Mm-hmm. Will do. You know, versus they see images from their friend’s wedding or see us at a wedding or, or know that we’re speaking at conferences and like we were just, and Mary, like, there’s just a very different feeling there. That is just unfortunately how we will walk around in the world.

One of the questions that’s been coming up on this, on the, you know, doing these interviews is like, well, like at what point in your story did you stop feeling underestimated? And I was like, uh, I got underestimated. Um, this morning. You know, that does not go away. Like, I, I, I really don’t think it goes away.

You know, I was thinking about this the other day, like maybe for Oprah, and then I was like, no, because there’s gonna be a whole new generation of people where to them, Oprah is not Oprah, you know? And so it’s not gonna feel like. I could see Gen Z or Gen Alpha underestimating Oprah. You know, like this is a human thing is my point.

And we will deal with that the rest of our lives. And so we have to find a way to not let that get in as much. And, and when I started writing this book, I 100% thought it was going to be a book 100% about when other people discount us and overlook us and underestimate us and we’ll show them, you know, like the underestimate me.

That’ll be fun kind of energy. And I started writing the book. And a, a book will tell you what it wants to be and it will have opinions on how it is unfolding. And what this idea said to me is it’s gonna be 20% that, but it’s gonna be 80% how we do it to ourselves. And that’s really when we started to get into a much, much deeper, the deeper transformational work of this book.

As you are probably picking up on from these answers, for everybody listening, like I don’t just do it one way, you know, I, I don’t really, I kind of suck at surface. And so I’m, we’re gonna peel a layer, then we’re gonna peel another layer, then we’re gonna peel another layer. And so the work of why do we do this to ourselves is the journey of the 14 chapters in this book.

So for just to catch everybody up, um, underestimated as 14 chapters, it is centered around the idea that fear’s a really boring liar. And so chapter by chapter, I go toe to toe with all the different faces that it kinda shape shifts into. Procrastination, people pleasing, perfectionism, overthinking, imposter syndrome, even a fear of success.

The first place where we really begin to see this work unfold is in chapter three. As I mentioned earlier, self-sabotage is a shot glass. It’s talking about this idea of, you know, what we think we are capable of trusting ourselves to handle and how we will shrink back from anything that feels more than that.

So that’s a really long answer already. I’ll let you kind of like bounce in off of that, but if you wanna go deeper on the self-sabotage and like how we begin to undo it, then let’s do it. Yeah,

Quianna: no, I’m so here for this and I love this because. A, I love this conversation because you are like, we’re just pinging back on each other.

And I’m like, yes. Like we’re in each other’s brains. I can feel this. And yeah, I would love to, let’s like uncrack some of these self-sabotaging things, because personally for me, that has always been my kryptonite. Like that has always been my, like up against a wall. Like, are you smart enough? Like, can you figure this out?

Like, you know, and, and it’s funny because. Okay. I would love to kind of unpack this thought as well. My inner child, right? Like little Kiana, I would say like little 8-year-old Kiana is so confident. Like she walks into a room like she knows it, right? Like, you know, just imagine like tap dance, Kiana, right?

Like she’s got this like center stage. All the girls in class we’re following me on the dance, like on the stage, right? So like that was me back then. And now in my like 37-year-old body, it’s like I know I’m capable. But it’s almost like that little inner child is my cheerleader, saying like, you can do this.

Like, what’s holding you back? Like, so I would love to like just chat a little bit about that, where like the self-sabotaging comes in where it’s like, I’ve always had my back, I always take care of myself and I’m thriving. I really am kind of going back to that, like underestimating myself, like, hold on.

Like, you know, anybody listening is like, Kiana, this is in your head. That doesn’t make any sense, but it’s true. Right? So like. Let’s chat about underestimating ourselves and like where that self-sabotage, like, ooh, like how do we break through that, Mary?

Mary: Yeah, I know, I know. I’m here for it. Okay, so here’s the, here’s the the where the work in this book like really begins.

I’ll sort of catch everybody else up as well to say that the whole book kind of follows a mountain metaphor. We’re pushing this very heavy boulder up the hill Over and over and over again. We become, you know, we’re, we’re with an arm’s length reach of our breakthrough moment. There’s a little stake sign, wooden stake sign in the ground that has arrived.

And you are here just to let us know how close we came this time before, at the very last minute, we make eye contact with everyone who’s about to be watching at home. Oh, somebody’s gonna read this book, somebody’s gonna listen to this podcast. And we self-consciously, you know, glance down back at ourselves.

We blink, we lose our grip, we lose our way, and the boulder rolls all the way back down the mountain. So for some people listening, you are going, yes. What is that? What is that thing where it feels like no matter what I try to do, I’m, first of all, I’m pushing against something really heavy. It feels so much harder than it should feel.

It feels so much harder than it seems to be for this whole other group of people who seem to just be able to implement, execute, and achieve What? Like it’s hard and I’m pushing and I’m pushing and I’m pushing. And I say in that part like. Oh, make no mistake. We’re good at the grind. We thrive in the grind.

If there was an award for long suffering, we would take first prize every time. It’s the breakthrough we struggle with. It’s those mountaintop moments and wide open, spacious views that make us feel like we’re finally safe to rest that make us wanna run and hide. I just kinda wanna set that up. In self-sabotage.

That chapter I’m talking about how one of my guilty pleasures is following really cheesy success accounts on Instagram, things with like a lion and a Lamborghini roar until you get everything you came for, you know, for some like tech bro and sunglasses and a private jet on one of these accounts. One day a couple years ago, uh, just a quick scroll by of a post and it was a picture of a shot glass.

I mentioned that earlier and it said, if you believe, if we believe that we have the capacity of a shot glass. Every time we get a little bit more than that, we will subconsciously shrink ourselves back. And then I added this part until we fit back into the tiny containers we believe we belong in. And that kicks off, you know?

And then it goes on to say we have to expand our capacity, expand it to, it’s the size of an infinity pool. It’s like, of course it had to be an infinity pool on this account, but like that was one of the clear, most, like the clearest explanations of self-sabotage I’d ever seen. And it just kind of like felt like this.

This is why I keep doing this is why I keep starting over. It’s like I start to get a little bit more than what I think I can handle, and then it’s like, just kidding. You know, we, we, we jump back. Just kidding. We blink, we lose our grip and the lose our way and the boulder rolls all the way back down the mountain.

And so I had Dr. Allison Cook on my podcast very shortly after that on the Mary Marin show. I said, how do we stop doing this if most of the time we don’t even know we’re doing it, if it’s subconscious. We pulled up this part from her book, the Best of You, where she was talking about, for those of us who didn’t grow up with a lot, or maybe we grew up in chaos or instability, it can trigger in us, it can kind of flip a switch in us this constant state of survival mode and this like chaos is familiar.

So we return to it over and over again. Kind of a cycle. Kind of a loop that just, that was for somebody right there. Chaos is familiar, so we. She said, we can actually reteach ourselves a sense of safety that we didn’t get when we were little. And we do that by setting small, so that can be manageable, but important.

They have to matter to us, commitments to ourselves, and actually keeping them. She said, day after day, week after week, month after month. As you do this, as you keep those promises to both yourself, you honor yourself in both big and small ways. You are showing yourself. And she looked me dead in the eye through the screen, just like we’re looking at each other now.

And she said. You are teaching yourself that there is a grownup in the room who can be trusted. That grownup is you and I just burst into tears on the spot. And so that’s it. That becomes the great work of this book. You know, the subtitle is the Surprisingly simple Shift to Quit Playing Small. I. And so right after that chapter, there’s a breakout where it talks about, you know, this is what I mean by the shift.

You know, we, we wanna flip the thinking on its head that says we have to go big in order to quit playing small. Paradoxically, some of the most important work we’ll do to quit playing small is actually by starting small. Because when you do that and you do it every day, it becomes a part of your identity.

It becomes this thing, like you said earlier, that you’re becoming, rather than this one, you know, highlight real day that happened to you. That each chapter, each different face has a different small shift for how we actually battle. You know, that mask of fear that it puts on to try to shapeshift its way out of being caught by us.

And the more that we can do that, the more we can kind of pull the curtain back on, you know, the great and powerful oz, and realize that fear was really just a snake oil salesman behind the curtain the whole time. I always try to give credit. Sarah Rice said that to me on this Changes Everything podcast.

She’s the one who first said that Wizard of Oz part. Yeah. Uh, and I said, I’m gonna quote you every single episode and I’m gonna give you credit every time. So there you go. No, I love that. Well, we’ll definitely give her credit.

Quianna: Thanks Sarah. Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, I would love to dig deeper into just like the thought of procrastination, because for me that’s a huge self sabotage.

Like legit, like I. If you give me a deadline and it needs to be done next week, I’m doing it the night before it’s due, right? If you only give me until lunch today, I will hustle and grind and make it work, and I won’t have any excuses. It’ll be delivered. So like when it comes to these big breakthroughs, um, whether they’re small, small shifts or, you know, big exciting things in our business and in our personal lives, let’s talk about procrastination and how that like, can.

I guess maybe like help define that for us.

Mary: Let’s chat about that. Well, so the procrastination chapters, chapter eight, procrastination is a double-edged sword. I actually kicked that chapter off telling a story of like, I was in a class in college that was very, very hard to get into and it was a very, very hard class once you were in it, and it was especially a hard class to get an A in and I was like a straight A, we gotta get all A’s kind of, you know, overachiever.

The way the grading in the class worked was that everybody started with a hundred points that corresponded to the grading scale of like a hundred equals, you know, an a plus. And every point you lost on either an exam or the big final paper was directly detracted from the final grade. So if you lost, you know, more than seven points, you were immediately into like a minus territory or whatever.

And I lost five and a half points on the very first exam. So I was like, oh boy, I can lose one and a half more points the entire rest of the semester. Amazing. So we had a big final paper due, and the rule was that it had to be turned in on time in class. It had to be turned in on time in class. And so I started, you know, I put off that paper, I dreaded it.

It felt like, you know, oh, I’m gonna be, whatever I do, I’m gonna fail. I’m gonna lose more points, blah, blah, blah. Put it off until the last minute, until what I lovingly referred to in that chapter as the terror kicks in. And I talk about how I have made very, very good friends with the terror. Because however horrible I feel when I’m procrastinating, however, like, you know, existential dread, I can’t do this.

I’m feeling when I’m putting it off the moment that the tear kicks in and it’s, it’s sort of this moment when like, oh wait, if I wait much longer, I might actually fail. I might actually lose the opportunity. It’s kind of like, I joke that it’s kind of like. Vampire Venom in a wildly popular YA novel suddenly shoots through all of my veins with this crystallizing clarity and the words pour forth as if they were always there.

And anyway, I wrote this paper, stayed up all night to pulled an all nighter to write it. The morning came, I kept writing it. Class began and I kept writing it. Class was nearly over. And I, I start off the section saying it takes 14 minutes and, you know, 37 seconds or whatever to get from the Papa John’s parking lot up to Woodburn Hall.

He and I go racing up the hill. Put my hand on the doorknob, take one kind of final, like why am I the way I am? And then I turn this knob, you know, squeaky brass knob, 50 faces are looking at me 23 seconds left in class and put my paper on the desk, barely sit down and the professor goes, class dismissed.

But he made some kind of joke about like, you know, the rule of law is always open for interpretation. Like I, I, it was the last 23 seconds, but I turned it in in class, in class, and I got a hundred on that paper and an A in the class. And I’ve been chasing that high every day of my life ever since. And so I tell that very long story because where we begin is like, what is actually in it for us?

When we procrastinate, that’s the first question we have to ask. What are we really afraid of? What’s really in it for, like, what are we trying to tap into? And so for a lot of us, myself included. Maybe you’ll resonate with this as well. Kiana is, for me, the fear that pushes me into procrastination is that I’m terrified that it won’t be as good as I want it to be.

And so what we can actually do is sort of use procrastination as this double-edged cop out kind of runs to the extreme, to the extremes on either edge. If I put it off to the last minutes, turn it in and pull it off, and do get a good result. Then I always can say to myself, think how much better it would’ve been if I’d had more time.

This is not the edge in the limits of my abilities. I could have done even better than that, but I just didn’t have any more time. If I don’t get the result I want and I’m disappointed, and the very off chance the self-fulfilling prophecy becomes the time I do fail, then I can say I’m not a person who fails.

I’m not a failure. I was just up against impossible circumstances this one time. So we go deep in that chapter. We talk about, you know, I mentioned it’s a double-edged sword. We talk about passive versus active procrastination. We talk about adaptive versus non-adaptive. We talk about the parasympathetic nervous system, the sympathetic nervous system, procrastinations, Brit Frank talks about, it’s a physiological response and we talk about these different types, one of which is the thrill seeker also called the crisis maker who will intentionally.

Create these deadlines because they love the euphoria of being able to pull it off at the last minute. And you know, I love being able to just tap into the terror when it’s like all of my second guessing goes out the window. ’cause I don’t have any time to second guess. I gotta get this done. So I, I kind of joke that it’s sort of like in a fight fire with fire, I’m rubber your glue approach.

I, I ironically battle back my fear by being even more afraid than I might not be able to get the result I want. So we start with procrastination by saying, what is it? What is procrastination really giving us?

Quianna: Wow. Yes. And I love that ’cause I. I play that dance like I play with fire too. Like I am always last minute about things.

I love a good like basis loaded, two outs, you know, I am up, you know, three balls, two strikes. Here we go like this next, this next pitch is everything and I always pull through, but there’s always that, I don’t know, like you said, like it is like that. What is it that’s just blowing through our veins and it is just like we crave that.

That fire, right? Like I love that you mentioned that it really is a double-edged sword. Like woo.

Mary: Yeah. You know, something that came up for me for the first time ever. This is not, I don’t you, it’s, it’s there in a roundabout way, but it is not there specifically in the book. You’re bringing up all sorts of things for me, um, that I haven’t talked about before.

And that is, there is also a belief in me. You know, this is a very Appalachian thing of like, if you didn’t struggle for it, you don’t deserve it. So if I were to ever become one of those people who does stuff super in advance and turns it in when I still had another week, I could work on it. It doesn’t feel like I actually gave my best, you know?

Like I feel like unless I’m working up until the last possible second, then I wasn’t working as hard as I could, even though I didn’t work any of the seconds who came? That came before, you know, even though I like took all this time to even get started, there’s something in my brain that says if I became one of these very calm, responsible, rational people who turn things in a week early, what if my better idea comes to me once it’s already handed in, you know?

That’s one of those things we have to kind of break up with, right? If we’re going to let go of some of the things that are no longer serving. I saw a really beautiful quote, Johnny Cuff shared that. I guess he said Tim Ferris said it, of like we are all in the process of breaking up with things we used to do.

And I’m like, oof. That’s gonna be a hard breakup with procrastination for sure.

Quianna: Yes. Oh man. No, I feel this like in my bones and yeah, and I do, I feel like. Sometimes even for me, like, it feels like a, a symptom of self-sabotage though. Like, right? Like it’s just like, oh, I have more, you know, if I had more time, one thing that just came through I wanted to chat about too is like basically the idea of entrepreneurship.

I. A lot of us are small business owners. We are chasing really big goals and really big dreams, and we make our own deadlines. Like we literally pull these out of thin air, like they’re make believe deadlines for us. Right? And like, and don’t get me wrong, like there are some things, right? Like whether you know you’re a photographer, like you know, your clients are expecting galleries.

Like get on that, over deliver, get them to them well weeks in advance, and you will literally win them over, right? Like we know there are deadlines that we have to stick to. Uh, what advice do you have for creating healthy deadlines for these big breakthroughs? Mm,

Mary: yeah. One of the things I talk about in that procrastination chapter is I had Gretchen Rubin, who’s a fellow Yale Law alum and the author of many, many bestselling books, um, including one called The Four Tendencies, and I had her on my podcast to talk about that book.

The whole book is centered around the idea that people divide into four types based on a matrix of can keep promises to ourselves. Can keep promises to others like, like, you know, are able to, you know, how well we’re able to do that. And so an upholder is able to keep obligations, you promises to both themselves and others.

So she is an obliger, uh, sorry, an upholder. And that means that if she has promised herself she’s going to yoga class at seven and her boss says, I need you to stay late, she’s able to go, uh, no, I, I actually have this thing. I can’t cancel. And then surprisingly, the upholder iss, the rarest type. Uh, maybe the rebel’s, the rarest type, but it’s one of the rarest types.

So there’s does a good job of keeping promises to self and others. There’s the questioner, which is like, I can keep promises to myself, but you’re gonna have to tell me why you want me to do that before I’m gonna keep that promise to you. I need to understand why that is the way it is, and I have a good, healthy dose of questioner.

Me too. The rebel is like, I don’t care if I made the promise to myself or it’s to somebody else. I’m gonna break it regardless. I’m gonna rebel against myself and others. Then the obliger is the most common. The obliger is, I’m terrible at keeping promises to myself, but the second I think I’m gonna let somebody else down, then I can do it.

And so since most of us fall into that category, or at least have a touch of that, even if you’re not officially an obliger, you know that feeling of like, I’ll people please my way into a deadline for somebody else. The advice is to actually get yourself a real deadline as opposed to give yourself a deadline, right?

If just giving ourselves deadlines was all we needed, then we would never procrastinate again. If we have somebody external who’s counting on us or who’s gonna hold us accountable or is gonna maybe, you know, give us a bad grade or post a picture on social media, we don’t want them to post whatever it is.

Like we can kind of game the system a little bit while we build the muscle of learning to keep promises to ourselves. So get somebody to hold you accountable in a really real high stakes way.

Quianna: I just love a full circle moment where. All of this, like literally the thread line to me, whether it’s plane safe, whether it’s the discussion of procrastination and underestimating yourself and self-sabotage and fear, all of this, Mary, honestly just boils down to safety in your own skin, being a business owner, you know, for us being women of our word, right?

Like that is just so powerful and it start like it just, I can already think of a million things I wanna start doing today, right? Whether that is making. Better nutrition choices, right? Like, what am I eating? How am I walking? And how am I keeping those promises to myself? Am I hitting smooth or am I waking up?

Like all of these things add up and that’s where the breakthrough happens, is just doing what you say you’re gonna do.

Mary: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I will just caution this ’cause I fall into this, uh, category. In chapter five, not enough is a blank space. I talk about my friend Jason Ruler, who actually endorsed the book, and something in his book he talks about is like, for those of us who didn’t grow up with a lot, we can fall in love with self-improvement and reading self-help books.

Um, because we love to read about how to succeed and how to be, and how to show up in the world. He said, but we find it really hard to stop because something about our story said. We always have to be different, you know, in order to belong. And so set those important commitments to yourself. Keep those important commitments to yourself.

But don’t let it go so far to the point where you think you alwa. You’re always just one commitment away from finally belonging or finally being ready to show up, like keep the promises and keep showing up simultaneously. Wow, okay. That just

Quianna: unlocked a whole new conversation like that, like a whole new episode.

Oh my gosh. Oh, this has been so beautiful, Mary. So I do wanna ask you, ’cause I love, like, as, as you know, you’re chatting about, you know, your book, and this is book number three underestimated, and I love this. I know before we hit record, I, I explained that it kind of feels like a concert series, right? Like you’re going on, like you’re, you’re chatting, you’re sharing about the book and really just leaving these mic drop moments and these mindset shifts, which I think is perfect for this mindset series.

I actually would ask you, tell me about the cover, and it looks like a compass or maybe a clock. Like how did you land on this graphic and this image for your book?

Mary: Yeah, I’m actually, I don’t know if you, uh, maybe you’ll show this, one of the clips. I’ll bring the book up close, um, so you can kind of see it and look at that.

Look how shiny. Oh, oh, pretty. Oh, so fun backstory is that I, I did, uh, design the bulk of the cover. There was actually a different cover art image originally, which was a stopwatch, and it had a tagline at the top that said, for those of us who keep starting over, you know, like a stopwatch keeps kind of resetting to zero.

And we feel like we’ve been lapped on the climb. And I’ve, you know, alluded to and mentioned this, this mountain metaphor that runs through the whole book of feeling like you’re pushing the boulder up the hill and then it drops back down. There’s also a running ledge metaphor like we leaped the first time, but will we leap again the next time the ledge comes back around?

I’m not gonna give it away, but in chapter 14, there’s a very cool moment where we find out they are one and the same. We’ll leave that for everybody who reads it, the whole kind of journey up the mountain. What we are, what’s being, you know, revealed to us as we go is we didn’t come out here to climb this mountain just because we want to be the ones who reach the dizzying heights.

Just because we want to reach an elevation that has never been reached before, just because of our mountaintop moments and what it looks like for us to stand on the top. And do that alone. We don’t come out here and climb a dizzying height like this unless we are going to return to where we started this time as a guide for others.

This time is a guide for others. And so, you know, the subtitle is the surprisingly simple shift to Quit playing Small Name the fear and move forward anyway. And if you’re gonna climb a mountain like that and be a guide for others, you’re probably gonna need that sort of compass, right? Like the, the compass kind of represents.

It’s guiding us up the way, but more to the point, if you look really closely, there’s this dotted line with these two, you know, X marks sort of a, a stuck to start kind of moment. And the compass is sort of pointed this way where you sort of reached a bend in the road where it feels like you could just get discouraged and turned back.

You don’t really know where to go from here, but all we really needed was that small shift to figure out how to move forward. And so you’re the only one who’s ever asked about that, which is pretty amazing. But yeah, that’s the theory behind the, uh, compass. The compass we felt was less, we’re racing against the clock and more we’re finding our way forward.

Quianna: I love it. And I, I love that. Just like the definition of the two, right? Like a clock versus. The direction and the path and the compass. ’cause I feel like when I see anything about racing against the clock, whether that’s like biologically, right? Like we haven’t started our family journey. I don’t know if that’s possible for us.

Like I just feel like, like this, the clock thing is scary and, but the, the compass feels like an adventure. The compass feels like it’s almost like a co-creation with whether, like for me, that’s God, right? For us, that’s our faith. That’s. Using all the, just the tools that we have learned. The lessons, the experiences.

Like it becomes an adventure and like a destination and enjoying the journey versus like hitting that race button.

Mary: Yeah. And it’s, you know, if we felt like it was a warmer cover, it’s that nice warm gold medal. This is, the photographers will appreciate this. The stopwatch was a very like, like cool silver.

And so one, some of the feedback we got from like we did like early focus groups with the buyers for some of the retailers was that it became off kind of sterile. Almost like a hospital room or s you know, a surg surgical room. And there’s this really fun part in the book. It’s one of my favorite pieces of writing in the book, where it’s talking about how, um, as a general rule, don’t ask questions you don’t know the answers to.

You don’t already know the answers to can lead us to a pretty fluorescent lit existence. And it goes on this really like really fun, beautiful metaphor. That is basically what it feels like as women to sit in the gynecologist’s office. If I’m just being really honest with you. It’s sitting on the table.

It’s the crinkle of the paper. It’s the footsteps outside the door. Oh, are you about to come in? Yeah. And I say it’s a safe life. It’s a sterile life. It keeps us, you know, protected from anything that would harm us. You know, it’s just kind of just talking about like Clorox on the floor and like it smells of freshly open packages of gauze, but it’s not where the magic happens.

And so there, that’s such a cool thing that it was right there in the book all along and switching from something that feels sterile and surgical and like cold to something that feels like an adventure is the point. That’s the whole point I. It’s not like the destination of getting to the top of the mountain.

It’s the journey to get there. Oh my gosh. So beautiful, Mary.

Quianna: Oh, this has been so fun. Uh, I love this. Well, I love to always wrap up with one more question and I would love to know, and you did a key tip last time, so I’ll have to make sure to circle back and tag that as well. But what key tip in this piece of your journey, like in this timestamp of your life.

What is something that you would love to share with entrepreneurs today?

Mary: Yeah, I think it’s, it really is truly just that idea of, it feels like, it feels like a little bit like cheating to just be like, oh, everything that’s in the book ask actually. But I think it’s like that idea of like the second you really can realize that fear’s boring, liar, therefore fear the, the same people you’re looking up to that seem so far ahead of you.

And we love in, you know, in chapter five I talk about, we over idealize people. We love to ascribe to them these perfect records that simply do not exist. They stumble, start, stutter, start over, fall down on their faces and get disappointed just like you do, and have the same boring scripts of fear being used against them.

Probably honestly, with the volume turned up, the higher and higher the levels they go ’cause fear would not bother you if this work you were doing did not matter. And so the second you stop thinking that you have to be perfect like you imagine them to be because they truly are not, the second, it frees you up from feeling like if you make one single mistake, it disqualifies you from moving forward.

And so what I would say to you is that this voice in your head that wants you to get you to doubt yourself before you even begin. I think you’re gonna fail before you even start. That voice is terrified of the day. You realize that perfect records, were never a prerequisite for purpose and nobody is asking you to be perfect.

We do not expect that of you. We just want you to show up because another year goes by, the clock goes on ticking and the world is worse for your absence, like we said earlier. So I think it’s that. It’s that it’s fear’s, really boring fear’s, attacking everybody you look up to. Just the same perfect records are not a prerequisite for purpose.

And

Quianna: mic drop moment as always. Oh my gosh, you inspire me so much. So how can we get our hands on this book?

Mary: Yeah. I’m telling people about two fun things. One of them is that in, uh, slow Growth Equals Strong Roots, which is my second book. We introduced these characters for the first time there, but they actually carry over into underestimated the five achiever types.

And so in Underestimated, we talk about how the different types get stuck playing small and how to break out of it. And so. They’re the performer who’s always on their toes. They need to show both themselves, but also everybody else, just how far they’ve come. I am the performer. The tightrope walker could care less who’s clapping, but they just want these higher and higher death defying feats in order to feel the same amount of good.

The masquerader is gonna push other people into the spotlight while they hide in plain sight, disappear in plain sight. Tricky slight of hand we talked about earlier. The contortionist is the classic people pleaser. We contort because it is easier than to be criticized. The illusionist in the distance believes all the conditions to begin, and they themselves must be perfect before they can even start like we talked about.

And so you can go to achiever quiz.com or mary morans.com/quiz. My last name is M-A-R-A-N-T-Z and the quiz takes like two minutes, you know, to take 10 minutes if you super overthink it. 10 really fun questions. And then in True Mary form, we go fun in the questions, deep in the results. I’ll tell you how your type gets tripped up, plain small and how you move forward.

So that’s achiever quiz.com. And then if you go to name the fear.com, we have actually put up there for all your listeners, Kiana. They can grab the entire first chapter for free. They can download it, start reading right away, get a feel for my writing, get a feel for the book, and then while they’re there, if they want to pre-order.

And pre-orders are like literally the make or break thing for whether a book gets on shelves, whether Amazon recommends it is like you may also like, it’s just I, I cannot underscore enough like how everything hinges on pre-orders. If you love an author, if there’s an author in your life you love or pre-order their books early and often, as Gretchen Rubin says, like that is the biggest thing, we have the first three chapters up there.

If you pre-order, you get those right away so you can start reading. And even better, in my opinion, when the audiobook comes out, you will get that as a bonus. It’s kinda like getting two books for the price of one, the hardcover to take notes in and underline. And then the audio book is me Whispering Sweet nothings to use.

74,000 words. That’s at NameTheFear.com and then at Mary Marantz is me on Instagram. Come tell me what your achiever type is, or if you pre-ordered the book, listened to the episode, tell me all the things, um, and let’s keep it going over there.

Quianna: Amazing. Oh my goodness. Well, thank you so much, Mary. I appreciate your time.

Every time I have these conversations with you, like I have these mindset shifts, I feel. I don’t even wanna, it’s like a, a different person. I actually feel like I come back to me, which I think is just so beautiful. Yeah.

Mary: Puffy heart explosion right there. Yes. Thank you. Instead just rain down. That’s, that’s like the best thing I could hear.

Quianna: Yes! Oh my gosh. Well, I hope you have a beautiful day. I am pre-ordering that book. I will, yes. Put the pre-order on my Instagram, on the blog, all the things so we can get as many of those as possible for you. ’cause more people. I need to hear this. Yes. Well, thank you so much. Have a beautiful day.

Oh my goodness! That was a good one. I told you it was gonna go deep, and these conversations always leave me feeling motivated and excited, but also a deep feeling of understanding that if I want anything to change, I need to make the change. Small baby steps, but nothing will change unless I make the effort. Well, this is your sign to pre-order the book Underestimated.

Let’s crack open those chapters, share these stories, understand our own limiting beliefs, and create a safe space to share what’s really keeping us small. Make sure to head to the show notes for this episode to get your hands on the book and to follow along with Mary. Also, if you love this conversation, you’re gonna love Episode: 111, Slow Growth with Mary Marantz.

Make sure to check that out ’cause that was the first time that Mary hopped on the podcast. Oh, it’s just so fun. And if you really loved just her, just her magic, you’re gonna wanna listen to The Mary Marantz Show Podcast for even more life-changing conversations. It’s truly an honor to bring one of my longest and most precious mentors right into your ear today.

We were all just sipping coffee or going for a walk together. This is your reminder that we don’t have to do life and business alone. We have each other. Thanks so much for joining the chat today. I can’t wait to continue this mindset series with friends like you. Buckle up, babe. We’re going places. Can’t wait to chat soon! Love you. Bye!

That’s a wrap on another episode of Quianna Marie Weekly. Thank you so much for your listenership and support. You can find the resources and show notes for this episode and more at QuiannaMarie.com/podcast

I’d be honored if you’d show your support by leaving a review and rating on your favorite podcast app. Until next time, keep on on dancing. It’s time to STOP underestimating yourself my love!

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